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 Post subject: CTL vs Hybrid irons (testing)
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:27 am 
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I would like to share some findings from a few days of seriously testing CTL and Hybrid irons. I won't bother publishing formal results, but rather, want to post a summary of what I have found.

There are, as you would expect, a number of myths in the game about clubs, and I think that this CTL versus Hybrid debate has engendered a few myths specific to these clubs.

How would one decide on a set of irons?

This is another way of asking "How would one evaluate a set of irons?" -- for testing. Here are the criteria I would consider:

1) Distance

Equal. There is a one yard difference here and there, but for the purposes of choosing irons, they are the same distances. To test distance, I recorded a series of perfect (100%/0%) hits to the exact pixel, a series of hit striking 1 pixel before 0% (early), and a series of hits 1 pixel after 0% (late). I tested full side spin shots, using 5x Shift-<RightArrow>, and a few no spin series as well. They are no noteworthy differences in distance.

2) Accuracy

I tested only "distance accuracy" and not side-to-side accuracy.
Distance-accuracy: Equal.

To test distance-accuracy, you fist get a series of 4 or 5 perfect 100%/0% hits. This establishes an average. You also record a series of early and late hits and measure how far from the average the distance deviates. The 2 types of clubs are equally accurate in terms of distance-accuracy. (I must say, this was a bit surprising to me, as I had thought CTLs were not as distance-accurate as Hybrids.)


3) Other more minor factors...

-- Height
Equal.
I tested using rock barriers on Gleiger, to see what club+spin would show the club getting over a barrier. These tests were done in nearly equivalent weather. Side spin irons show the same height. As with other tests, the same stats were used for both sets of irons.


-- Green action
I did not test this. Some say they react differently when they land on a green. How a ball reacts is a reflection of how much simulated spin is put on the ball by the software; both (a) side spin and (b) back spin for side spin shots. (Side note: This is also highly ball-dependent, since we know that 2-piece versus 3- and 4-piece balls, react VERY differently.)

Summary:
For the criteria that I tested, there is no difference between these 2 sets of irons.

Cheers, A


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 Post subject: Re: CTL vs Hybrid irons (testing)
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:31 am 
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You have any idea how the original Elords stack up against those two irons?

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 Post subject: Re: CTL vs Hybrid irons (testing)
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:44 am 
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Sorry for highjacking ... I've used Elords I for a year and they are shorter then Hybrids / CTLs. I believe original Elord irons were tested before by ainns against CTLs / Tempests etc.

Here it is I believe ....
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=54929

Anyhow, thanks for this test ainns. I believe it'll ruin a lot of myths about these irons. Keep up the good work, even tho it may seem no one cares I know a lot of folks who appreciate your efforts.

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 Post subject: Re: CTL vs Hybrid irons (testing)
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:33 pm 
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See #14 in the list:
Link to list of tests: viewtopic.php?f=36&t=46007

Edit: Now i see Alex already gave you link :)

Pacty wrote:
You have any idea how the original Elords stack up against those two irons?


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 Post subject: Re: CTL vs Hybrid irons (testing)
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 4:29 pm 
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Very good stuff Allan!

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 Post subject: Re: CTL vs Hybrid irons (testing)
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 12:37 am 
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Thanks for killing the myth Ainns ;)

I have never tried CTL but i'll stay with my hybrids :)


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 Post subject: Re: CTL vs Hybrid irons (testing)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:48 am 
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Hello,

I just sold my old CTL R irons with 3 skill.
Now im looking to buy new ones... but i just cant figure out if i want hybrid or ctl.

Your test says there is no diffrence... some guys told me hybrid is better, and some CTL.
1 guy even told he tested clean ctl against clean hybrid and got 10/12 yards further with CTL irons.

10/12 yards is alot... how come u did not get any difference?

And why are hybrids so much more expensive if there is, according to some, no difference between them and CTL?

Plz help me out haha, because i cant decide wich i should buy.


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 Post subject: Re: CTL vs Hybrid irons (testing)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:02 am 
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jeffrey,

I assure you that there is little to no difference in the distance you get from Hybrid vs CTL irons. The only difference of note is how the ball reacts on the green. For Hybrid irons, the balls stops a little quicker on backspin and sidespin. I talk about this difference in the main post of this thread.

People tell me all sorts of things about clubs... some true, some not true. You will get varying opinions for a variety of reasons, but the 2 most important ones that explain "apparently" different results are:

1) Bias (someone likes a club more than some other... who knows why)
2) Lack of rigor when testing.

Some people pop into the range and whack away, without much concern over how exact their test is. They might hit exactly 100%, but more likely they are off by a couple of pixels and think that it is not important. The same could be said of hitting 0%.

Here is a re-post of something that I wrote when I was posting lots of test results, a couple of years back:

Why rigorous testing is vital:

Factor: 98%-100% tee condition
Explanation:
Two pixel-perfect shots can be off by 2 yards easily, just from the variability of this 98%-100% lie condition.
Solution:
It is vital to average at least 3 perfect hits to get an accurate number.

Factor: Not hitting the same pixel at 100%
Explanation:
If you are off by one pixel, a driver shot can vary as much as 2 or 3 yards.
(4 or 5 yards nowadays)
Solution:
Verify with a screen magnifier that you are hitting exactly the same pixel for each shot.

Factor: Not hitting the same pixel at 0%
Explanation:
If you are off by even one pixel around 0%, a driver shot can vary by as much as 3 yards.
Solution:
Verify with a screen magnifier that you are hitting exactly the same pixel at 0% for each shot.

If you add up all that variability, you can see that just hitting a few shots in a casual manner can result in an inaccuracy of 7 yards.

Other factors one must control: temperature and setting precise spin using SHIFT-<Arrow>.


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 Post subject: Re: CTL vs Hybrid irons (testing)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:13 am 
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Thanks for the fast and good reply!

The way you explained some things makes me believe your test. And since Hybrids are more expensive i think i go for the CTL (altough i might get an offer for cheap hybrids haha, we will see).

I am sure now that neither of those clubs overrule the other, so its good to know it actually doesn't matter wich one i pick.

Thanks again!

Jeffrey


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 Post subject: Re: CTL vs Hybrid irons (testing)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:04 am 
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Would also add that the Hybrid irons and CTL irons have the same amount of bend in them when hitting side spin shots. We are talking about the size of the bend here and not the action of the ball once it hits the green.


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 Post subject: Re: CTL vs Hybrid irons (testing)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:03 pm 
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I agree with the original poster. I have both CTL and Hybrids w/ +6 skill. I was told hybrids were longer so i ran out and bought a set. To my dismay both sets are virtually equal. I did not do extensive testing, but I hit 10 shots w/ a 5i and 10 shots w/ an 8i with each club. The hybrids only had a .5 yrd advantage in distance. The only interesting thing was the hybrids had a lower standard deviation than the ctls. With the 5i my standard dev was 2.02 and with hybrids it was 1.12. In theory this should mean the hybrids hit more consistent, but further testing w/ many more shots is required.


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 Post subject: Re: CTL vs Hybrid irons (testing)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:57 pm 
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Posts: 16
Hi guys,

Can you tell something about "zero miss" forgive of both clubs?

1. Both clubs have the same width of "zero area yellow bar"?
2. Which club forgive more "zero miss" shots?

Best regards

SEBO


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 Post subject: Re: CTL vs Hybrid irons (testing)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:52 am 
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This is very hard to test, due to the fact that the driving range is so short. If the driving range were, like 400 yards long, I could test side to side accuracy for irons. It is no use to test side to side accuracy for a really short club, like an 8 iron, as the shot is not long enough to really show the width of missing 0%. What you want to do is test like a 4 iron, so that the width of the same miss of 0% shows more. For example, missing an 8 iron by 2% might only show something like a 1yard width, but the same miss on a 4 iron might be 3 yards -- the latter is much easier to see and measure accurately.

Now, you might say, well, test them in the Practice Hole? Nope. You can not control the wing in the Practice Hole, so you might have to enter and exit 50 times before you get no wind. It takes all day. And remember-- you have to do this twice -- once for the CTL club and then again wearing the Hybrid clubs. It could take 2 days of entering and exiting to get 2 sessions with the same wind.

To answer your question as best I can:
I do not think there is much difference at all when missing 0% for the CTLs versus the Hybrids.


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 Post subject: Re: CTL vs Hybrid irons (testing)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:06 am 
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To illustrate what I was talking about-- why one should not try to measure 0% misses for short irons...

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 Post subject: Re: CTL vs Hybrid irons (testing)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:32 am 
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My guess, from reading this and trying both set's of clubs out. Is they are exactly the same ,just a different name and looks

Lazy developers, Plus a trick to get people to buy the box's they were put in.


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