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 Post subject: Test: Pwr/Ski for level 54-58
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:07 am 
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This test was to look at distributed Power and Skill for somebody around level 54-58, depending on Zodiacs, Ball, and Stat clothes. I used 127 stat points.

The values for Impact and Stamina were kept constant, at 40 and 8 respectively. I then cycled through combinations of the remaining stats to Power and Skill. We started at Power=27 and Skill=72, then for each step, we took 6 from Skill and added it to Power.

The results are in this chart. I could have used just about any long club, and I chose to use a Hybrid 5W. All hits are full 3 o'clock spin, set by using Shift-<RightArrow>.

Image

The Y axis in blue is the yardage recorded for the average of 3 hits at exactly 100% (check pixel with screen magnifier). The X axis in black are the values for Power,Skill.

The actual hit averages are shown as the gray line and red-ish points. The blue line is a logarithmic trend line. This is useful to see the trend of distance being added as we change stats.

As you can see, the distance keeps rising as we add to Power and take away from Skill. The longest distance was recorded at Power=69, Skill=30.

However, one does not want to use all Power, so the absolute distance traveled is not the most important thing. One needs to add to Skill to have height, bend, and top/back spin power. Therefore, what one is looking for imo is where Power does the most good.

Where to set Power?

I have highlighted the range where it seems that Power does the most good -- the tan oval drawn over the graph. The conclusion would be, that for a Power Build for this level of character, setting Power in the range of 42-45 is probably the best bang for the buck in terms of distance, while retaining a decent level of skill for bend and spin.

Of course, a character of a few levels higher, say in the mid to high 60's, would soon be looking at moving to a Skill Build -- setting Power down to about 35 and throwing the rest into Skill.

Notes
  • 4 F/Pedora were used in this test.
  • I averaged 3 hits per setting to record the final distance.
  • I verified 100% and 0% with a screen magnifier, to know that we were pixel-perfect. However, in the interest of time, we allowed for 1 hit per setting that was a pixel early (before zero). If we had such an early hit, the other two hits had to be perfect. You can imagine how many trips in/out of the range this takes. Time is not unlimited, so I made this small compromise.
  • Another plug to the new TP's: You'll be geting F/Pedoras in your locker. I would be glad to take a few as a donation or at a tester-friendly price. Thanks.

--------
From a previous test posting...
This is a related table from a previous post:

Image

We see here that there are diminishing returns for a high level, after about power of 32. The best range from the test would appear to be in the range of 29-33.

Remember, you are not after maximum distance imo. You are chasing the point where power does not add very much, the point of diminishing returns, so that you can dump the rest into the benefits of the skill stat.

Cheers, A


Attachments:
PwrSkillMidLvl.jpg
PwrSkillMidLvl.jpg [ 42.69 KiB | Viewed 1624 times ]


Last edited by A_In_NS on Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:34 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Test: Pwr/Ski for level 60-65
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:30 am 
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Again, great job. Nice initiative. By the way it's 147 stat points for this test (127 additional from base) and not 128. 99 in skill+power then 40 imp + 8 stamina ;)

For any Belz/Wotan/Shao/Zyg/Erda you begin with 20 atributes at lvl1. So at lvl60 you would have (2*59)+20 = 138 stat points and 140 if Albus and 142 if Camila. And for lvl65 it would be 148 for normal characters and 150 for Albus and 152 for Camila.

And this is if one play without any Zods, no balls with stats, no fittings or clothes with attributes boosts, which is not really that common anymore. So a fair number for a normal yet by no mean over-equipped lvl60-65 would probably be around 165-185 stat points.

This test could be of value for some lvl40-55 though I guess to get to know roughly how the attributes interact at those numbers, but the analysis of the results to what levels to keep power and skill at I would be very careful to make any strong conclusions from this test, as just as you mention it depends on so many other variables (how you play, where you play, your level of accuracy to adjust to weather, spin control ability, ability to pinpoint where 3w/5w will land, how you tend to solve tricky situations etc).

My point is, great work, but why be so eager to try and make such definitive universal conclusion to what appear to be best. Especially since (and yes I know how time consuming it is to make accurate testing like you do;) ) this test only try 5w for instance. Shouldn't one have more confidence in the people reading this and the other tests, that they are capable of drawing their own conclusions based on their own playing experience and the raw data you are so kind to provide?

After all, the surrounding factors for each individual is so complex and varying I think any drawn conclusion might in fact just mislead some people into choosing a set-up they might in fact not feel so comfortable with.

It's nice and interesting to hear different opinions and I really like to know how you and many others do interpret these results in combination with earlier findings, but let's just try to be more alert to try and make a more distinct separation between the data collected and the personal interpretation of the result? ;)

_________________
Character name: AnotherLevel (Camila)
Level: 85.197 (Tour-Pro) Freya-Lvl: 6,033 (9/270)
Formerly known as Norsken (retired lvl66 Belz since sep4-2009)


Last edited by fulnegern on Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Test: Pwr/Ski for level 60-65
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:59 am 
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ainns wrote:
Of course, a level 60-65 would soon be looking at moving to a Skill Build -- setting Power down to about 35 and throwing the rest into Skill.

Cheers, A


I think this entire old discussion on the classic high imp/pwr build vs the high skill build and when to change and how to have them is getting some new light after this finding and these 2 threads:

Power Test:
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=45865

Are there "magic" thresholds?
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=45682

Personally, I interpret that it appears that the sum of these 3 tests suggests that most people appear to over-do the contrasts between the high imp/pwr build versus the skill build and that these 3 tests combined suggests that there are no really need to make the transition so enormously huge:

By huge I mean people who go from
p69 imp64 sta10 Ski40

to

p34 imp39 sta10 Ski100

which appear to be roughly what a lot of people more or less have had their stats at at the time of swapping builds and what they changed to, since your test according to my interpretation suggest that people have skill levels generally unnecessarily low while having their imp/pwr build but that they then have both pwr and imp unreasonably low when having the high skill build, so that it seems to make more sense to reduce this drastic jump from say a more progressive journey into the high skill build, so for a period of 7 levels each level do something like this:

pw50 imp57 Sta10 Ski61
pw50 imp57 Sta10 Ski63
pw48 imp55 Sta10 Ski69 (Haoma II)
pw48 imp55 Sta10 Ski71
pw46 imp53 Sta10 Ski77 (Haoma II)
pw46 imp53 Sta10 Ski79
pw44 imp51 Sta10 Ski85 (Haoma II)
pw44 Imp51 Sta10 Ski87

And not rush so much to get the skill attribute so quickly up to 100, as there apparently are no "magic" thresholds that many "experienced players" have previous had us to believe.

But what would be really interesting to see was a test with 1w full 3 o'clock spin with fixed imp/pwr/stamina and then very skill in intervals of say 10 from 20,30,40,50,60,70,80,90,100,110,120 and see if 1w actually do have a threshold considering 1w is the only club that for a longer range of different level of skill attributes gives longest shot with just a slight sidespin, whereas all other clubs (at least was this was the case for my character) did get longest distance with full sidespin (yes even the 3w).

I mean after all, considering how massively widespread and acknowledged this threshold theory appear to be, it almost seems unlikely that there are not even the slightest element of truth to it as your tests actually suggest.

_________________
Character name: AnotherLevel (Camila)
Level: 85.197 (Tour-Pro) Freya-Lvl: 6,033 (9/270)
Formerly known as Norsken (retired lvl66 Belz since sep4-2009)


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 Post subject: Re: Test: Pwr/Ski for level 60-65
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:04 am 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 11:37 pm
Posts: 30
I agree this would not be most accurate for a 60-65 in todays game with cheap clothes and fitted clubs. Every other test you have done have been deadly detailed and a very enjoyable read, not saying this one is but would like to see it a little differently.

This is my characters stats standing in the square, yes I do zod up for Cadieger, but what level 67 wouldn't? These are my stats standing as I usually play Cad.

Image

So with the balls, thats 28 power, 35 impact and 114 skill. I don't believe that's too terribly low, but still all zodded up, cheap zods at that. Taking away one zod for a mag is still hardly noticeable.

I went to the driving range with my old Tornado 5w, bare to the bone with no fittings and tested the same way as you tested yours, I had a 30 degree weather, I think you used 27? With 3 perfect "Nice Shots!". Using the shift>tab method my average distance in drive was right around 346 yards.

I took off all of the zods and went to just bare stats (clothes included) and averaged a distance of 327 yards under the same variables.

I think this test is still great, but you may need to add in a few more things to make it most accurate for a someone around my level. I and other im sure, really do appreciate the time and effort you put intot hese tests. This post however is in no way to prove you wrong, or to bash. I'm just showing "what if" which I know you state clothes + zods were not used.


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 Post subject: Re: Test: Pwr/Ski for level 60-65
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:43 am 
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Posts: 154
This is a pointless post, but I don't use zods at level 65, and I am sure many do not. The only time, is three normal 2+ zods for HC> in a cads EXP game I can play equally as well without, and a few zods do not help me reach anything more than I can right now.

But for your build I can see that zods are necessary.

P>S if you are finding your stats aren't working for you(not saying they aren't) then try the Karisten build.

60 power, 50 impact, 50 skill. Worked wonders for me

_________________
---------------------------------------
IGN: Chubbs-
level: 81.395 (tour pro)
Overall: -305 (-17.94 average)
General HC: -29
HIO's & Albys: 62

2nd IGN: Chubbs_zyg
level: 42.256 (semi pro)
General HC: -28
-------------------------------------


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 Post subject: Re: Test: Pwr/Ski for level 60-65
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:51 am 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 11:37 pm
Posts: 30
With these stats, alot more things are reachable even with 0.0 wind compared to power/impact build. Thinking off the top of my head with 0 wind and these stats I can reach 13 green. 15 second fairway with 0 wind. 17 green, and 18 second fairway playing the back 9.

I am just trying to help someone around my level who wants to try a skill build, when I first tired skill I think i was somewhere in the area of 80-90 skill and did not like it so I found a way to pad as much skill as i could with it still being accurate, I have no problems playing with these stats.

Find me in game if you would ever like to play a few..


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 Post subject: Re: Test: Pwr/Ski for level 60-65
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:18 am 
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fulnegern

I assumed a budget-player, but you are correct, this is really for a level 55-58 type (or whatever in that area), presuming only 1 zodiac and like 7 stats from clothes and 1 from ball. I made the corrections. Thanks. A


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 Post subject: Re: Test: Pwr/Ski for level 54-58
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:28 am 
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Please, surely we can post our thoughts and such without calling something "pointless". There is no need to get emotional about any of this or to resort to slighting another person. Is just math ffs-- it ain't that important. :)

In my opinion, and this is not an original thought, there is nothing pointless in a discussion if it prompts peeps to think and raise other good points.

I am happy that peeps are playing well with a power of 60. Seriously, all that matters is that you are happy and playing well. BUT, in my opinion, this is not wise. There are holes on some higher level courses that you will struggle with if you have only 50 skill. In my opinion, you would only lose a few yards by using around 45 power and adding the 15 to skill, but the advantages in added spin and height would be worthwhile. Again, if you are playing easy courses, this is a moot point. But if you are playing mostly Abel and Cads (and maybe even Gleiger), you will want higher skill-- albeit not so high you sacrifice any significant difference.

Imo, if one had 60, 50, 50 to play with, a better balance, without losing hardly any distance, would be:

45 Power, 45 Impact, 70 Skill for Nado/Hurri
43 Power, 48 Impact, 69 Skill for Tempest irons

I reiterate-- this is not a Sosori/Alfheim build. It is more a Cads build, where most tee shots have side spin and some shots require strong bending and/or height. If it is a par 3, take an Impact drink. :)

Cheers, A


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 Post subject: Re: Test: Pwr/Ski for level 60-65
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:41 am 
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fulnegern wrote:
I think this entire old discussion on the classic high imp/pwr build vs the high skill build and when to change and how to have them is getting some new light after this finding and these 2 threads:


Exactly where I've been headed with this stuff f.

f's post deserves a re-read if you are a mid-level player.

-------------
PS:
We are almost to the point, after the series of rigorous tests we have done, and with just a few more tests one would have to do, that we could effectively have a web page that would calculate for you a nice stat balance. I have no intention of doing such a thing, but it would be trivial for a programmer do implement such a thing.

If one input the total stats available from all the sources (zods, clothes, ball, whatever), excluding Stamina, as well as provide a preference such as:

1) Max distance w/o regard to skill
2) High distance but adequate skill
3) Adequate distance and high skill

and

a) Impact: Adequate accuracy
b) Impact: Normal accuracy
c) Impact: Very accurate

then it would very straightforward to inform a user as what stats to use. The suggestions could be VERY accurate.

There is so much misinformation regarding stat configurations, that I am sure this would level the playing field for all.



Last edited by A_In_NS on Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Test: Pwr/Ski for level 54-58
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:56 am 
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Well I never said I disagreed with your analysis though =) I just pointed out that the test in itself had a great value in itself without interpretations beyond describing how to read the graphs and what methods and attributes were used.

If you read other posts you will actually see that I have also been against this idea of having very high power and impact before going high skill build, so I do agree pretty much with your analysis, however I'm not so sure I would go as far down with them as you suggest, even though as you said, would probably work great for Cad/Gleiger (but not really Abel, where I believe high impact is valuable and the amount of added flexibility from the skill not so vital as Cad/Gleiger) and still work fine on real-life courses (as long as one don't suffer from the classic "put max sidespin on all shots no matter what so I can use as little club as possible"-syndrome that many seem to suffer from and that usally will kill your score on many of the more normal courses ;)) I think even with Hurricane Clubs, impact above 50 still make huge difference in forgiveness. But again, I guess it's all about personal preferences, I guess I was very picky to small inconsistencies in where the ball laned. If I had 160 points to distribute for pwr/imp/skill I would probably had done pw47/im53/sk60 and then had power fitted 1w and skill fitted irons if possible.

But like you said in one of your earlier threads ainns: Attribute Distribution is not really THAT important as people would like to make it to. Only real mistake one can do when it comes to attributes I think, is to be to brave in having impact too low.

Compared to the marginal positive effect setting up the stats exactly like X or the slightly different y is so small compared to how much better people had played if they had spent all that time observing how ball behaves on green for certain combinations of slope, break, % hit etc and stuff like that.

_________________
Character name: AnotherLevel (Camila)
Level: 85.197 (Tour-Pro) Freya-Lvl: 6,033 (9/270)
Formerly known as Norsken (retired lvl66 Belz since sep4-2009)


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 Post subject: Re: Test: Pwr/Ski for level 54-58
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:26 am 
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Yeah, I don't deem that post pointless either, someone could use the information from it if they really wanted to.

Its the way I play, no one is forcing anyone to use any stats, just trying to help.


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 Post subject: Re: Test: Pwr/Ski for level 54-58
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:56 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:30 am
Posts: 154
Yea I agree, I find this test useful although it does not include all possible factors..... However if he did conduct a complex test involving more variables we would see a cumulation of complex data, that is primarily hard to put together, and hard to interpret for you "average joe". The tests ains is conducting are simple, but effective and can be understood by everyone.

I know you are trying to help fulegren, but ains is fully aware that the tests could be more accurate, and show more, but this is the best and only way to do test for now...... I think

P>S EVR_skoal sure I will play with you sometime, I am a bit busy atm but add chubbs- and we can do some cads. If your build works for you maybe I am wrong and might be interested in changing to it, so see you around :P

_________________
---------------------------------------
IGN: Chubbs-
level: 81.395 (tour pro)
Overall: -305 (-17.94 average)
General HC: -29
HIO's & Albys: 62

2nd IGN: Chubbs_zyg
level: 42.256 (semi pro)
General HC: -28
-------------------------------------


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 Post subject: Re: Test: Pwr/Ski for level 54-58
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:18 pm 
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This is a related table from a previous post. It applies to high levels only; to "skill builds".

Image

We see here that there are diminishing returns for a high level, after about power of 32. The best range from the test would appear to be in the range of 29-33 I would guesstimate.

Remember, you are not after maximum distance imo. You are chasing the point where power does not add very much, the point of diminishing returns, so that you can dump the rest into the benefits of the skill stat.

Link to entire post containing this chart:
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=45865

-----
PS: Chubbs-, You described my thinking and said it more eloquently that I could. Cheers, A


Last edited by A_In_NS on Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Test: Pwr/Ski for level 54-58
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:50 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 4:00 pm
Posts: 26
very nice post AINS

i've been reading some of ur posts

surely u helping out loads of low lvls with these kind tests


i will help whenever i get some pedora on my hands for u...


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